Shannons Club TV hosted by Mark Oastler & John Wright talk about Australia's rich motoring history on the road and in competition. Episode 103 features the Ford XK-XL Falcon.
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Comments
JohnrRoberts
Hi. Just a couple of comments. You didn't mention the other Falcon problem - which is that of the adjusting shims dropping out of the '60 Falcon's front end. Had to have mine welded in. Never had trouble with the same set of ball joints in over 60,000 miles of driving it - bitumen and gravel roads only though. The first automatic of the medium-sized cars came out in the Zephyr in '59.
VG7S41
History repeated itself 40 years later, with Ford taking another disaster and working hard to create a well above average car. AU to BA.
DrJohnWright
The coupes don’t need much in the way of modifications (if any) to look ultra cool. It was a fantastically moden design at the time and remains surprisingly fresh.
PonyRider
Dr John I did post a photo of a Green XP hard-top with V8 (302 though I think)
and Imperative was interested. I can't find it just yet, but I think I got photo from Unique Cars mag
The photo would be in dream car somewhere, but you'd have to go back a week or so to find it.
I may have mentioned the price .....................
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There should be a few around, it's a popular conversion.
DrJohnWright
If you find an XM or XP Hardtop with a 289, pls lmk.
PonyRider
markhlyn that is a hilarious story, and I can really visualise that happening !
When you hop from one car to another, sometimes everything is on the opposite side to what you are used to !
markhlyn
Thanks for a great analysis of the XK/XL Falcons. I remember well the purchase by my mate's father in 1962 of an XL with the 170 option. It was in Pink Beige with white roof and 3 on the tree. That car regularly took the whole family from Adelaide to Gold Coast Qld and gave no trubles at all. I was allowed to drive it as a 16 year old and it was impressive!
One interesting thing that I remember was that new cars were delivered with just mains tap water in their cooling systems. This worked ok on older Holdens and Vanguards with Cast iron heads and water pumps but the Adelaide water corroded out the thermostat housing on the XL in less than one year. The other memory I have is on the maiden drive, the owner having come from a Vanguard with gear lever on rhs of steering wheel, attempted to change gears with the indicator stalk. It snapped off in his hand to the amusement of the young passengers!
JohnrRoberts
Also, straight water corroded the XK diecast water pipe to heat the inlet manifold. The blinker stalk broke even when used as a blinker, lol. I found the XL's to be stronger.
PonyRider
Mark O no doubt you'd be aware of quite a few conversions on XP Hardtops having a 289 Windsor fitted,
it was a no-brainer for a lot of cluey Aussie blokes.
I wonder if the engineer's machinery report was made any easier due to the fact the USA already had similar
as a factory item in the Sprint Falcon ?
VG7S41
Engineers report? In the mid 60s? That'd be the local copper having a look under the bonnet, seeing if the mounts looked sturdy, and giving a "Yeah, she'll be right".
MarkOastler
Speaking of local two-door Falcons, I reckon those early XM-XP coupes were fantastic-looking cars, too. Just wish they could have slipped a nice little small block V8 in them like Bill Warner did, or sold the US Sprint version here. Harry Firth might have been more enthusiastic about those early birds!
PonyRider
I might have been too hasty saying the 'squarish' GTHO wouldn't look good as 2-door Hardtop,
because these two square-front beauties look great in that guise !
PonyRider
Bear351c I'm with you there, an Aussie RHD release would have been hugely popular in my opinion,
and so much closer a relative to the Mustang !
PonyRider
Here is what a Two-Door Hard-top XR - XT would look like !
.
Falcon Futura Sports Coupe (USA)
Bear351c
The American Sports Coupes of '66-'67 are awesome looking cars. Wish they released a right hand drive one over here.
PonyRider
Mark O and Chev62 I can't help thinking that the XW and XY GTHO's would not suit a fast back 2-door variation because of it's square-ish frontal shape whereas the XR XT might look pretty good as 2-door Hardtop (Just my opinion).
.
Also I came to the realisation that I never associate XW - XY with Taxi Cabs (even though I drove one once)
because the HO image is firmly etched in my mind. Funny that.
.
I wonder how many other Shannon-ites feel the same ?
MarkOastler
Thanks Chev62. Some interesting analysis there, although I must say I'm glad they didn't try to badge 1st gen Mustangs as two-door Aussie Falcons. I just wish Al Turner would have been allowed to base his GT-HO on the US two door Falcon as planned. His boss Bill Bourke just could not make a sensible business case out of the proposal, so all the GT-HOs had to based on the four door GTs. A two door GT-HO was always unfinished business for Al Turner!
Chev62
G’day Mark,
Of course the Ford Australia 1964 XM and 1965 XP Falcon pillarless hardtops were constructed by combining fully imported Falcon USA bodies with Australian front sheet metal and rear tail light panels. Ford in the USA did not offer a 2-door pillarless Falcon after 1965, I think primarily because the first Mustang was effectively a 2 door pillarless Falcon.
Ford Australia could only offer what it could obtain from its parent company. Looking back you do wonder if the first generation Mustangs could have been badged as Aussie 2 door pillarless Falcons. Mind you Ford in the USA could sell every Mustang they could build so why send stock to Australia.
The XA Falcons of course were Australian design and that enabled the reintroduction of 2 door hardtops again. In my view the Falcon XR, XT, XW and XY G.T. Falcons should never have been built with a 4 door body. GM-H was right to only offer its GTS HK, HT and HG Monaros as two door hardtops.
Anyway its all history today. Certainly the 1960s were exciting times for car design. Today’s cars lack that excitment totally.
MarkOastler
Many thanks Chev62, although those two quotes don't provide the answer I was chasing, which was Ford's reason as to WHY it was not offering a pillarless hardtop XR? That's what I was hoping to find out, but perhaps they didn't divulge such specific product details to members of the public. In any case, it sounds like you have a great historical collection there. Well done!
PonyRider
Wow Chev 62 ~~ What an impressive story.
You really were meticulous with your letter writing, research, and records.
.
Well done ! Can you scan the drawing you did for us to see ?
Chev62
G’day Mark,
I have looked again at my original copy reply letters from Ford Australia. Here are some direct quotes from them.
Letter dated November 15, 1966
From R.L. Barker Public Relations Officer, Ford Motor Company of Australia
“There are no plans at this time to introduce a pillarless hardtop into the XR range of vehicles”
Letter dated May 17, 1967
From James W. Murcott Public Relations Officer, Ford Motor Company of Australia
“Your mock-up of a two door is excellent. My only criticism is that the rear window is perhaps a little small”
Chev62
G’day Mark,
From just an 11 year old in 1962 until I was 17 or 18 years old, I regularly wrote letters to numerous Melbourne car dealers such as Melfords, Preston Motors, Southern Motors, Kellows (RR), Collins Motors and more requesting sales literature. I also wrote to the car companies as well such as GM-Holden, Ford Australia, Rootes Group and Chrysler Australia.
I still have all the reply letters from these dealers and companies and a substantial collection of Australian print 1960s sales brochures. I possibly have the most complete surviving collection of Australian (GMH printed) 1955 to 1968 Chevrolet / Pontiac sales brochures. The sales brochures are interesting but the letters provide a unique historical record of motoring in Australia during the 1960s.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I wrote to Ford Australia in 1966 just after the XR range had been released. My letter expressed my disappointment that Ford Australia had not offered a 2-door pillarless hardtop as they had in the previous 1964 ‘XM’ and 1965 ‘XP’ models. I attached a drawing of an XR Fairmont as a 2-door pillarless hardtop to my letter and stressed how popular the previous ‘hardtop’ models had been. Ford’s reply letter was not short and appeared to take my comments quite seriously. It certainly makes interesting reading today and I think that it might have even influenced to some extent the 2 door pillarless hardtops that where offered again with the ‘XA’ Falcons.
You must remember that in 1966 GM’s Holden Monaro was unheard of! The only pillarless cars offered by GM-H in 1966 were the Chevrolet Impala and Pontiac Parisienne Sport Sedans and these cars where twice the price of a Falcon or Holden. Holden’s and Falcons were after all ‘working man class’ cars, but would increasingly offer luxury models to replace the Pontiacs and Chevrolets that GM-H stopped assembling after 1970.
On a foot note, I have understood why XW and XY Falcons GT are so popular? I mean they have common 4 door sedan bodies that were used as taxis!
Reading Fords reply letter of 1966, in 2018 certainly gives a historical view as to the thinking at that time.
MarkOastler
Glad you enjoyed the episode as much as the Shannons Club TV team enjoyed making it. These fabulous 'early birds' are such icons of Ford Australia and the booming post-war years of the local car industry. We were such a clever country back then, being able to do so much with not a lot. Chev62, I am intrigued (along with other members) by your personal letter from Ford Australia in the 1960s explaining why it didn't make a pillarless hardtop variant (with two doors I assume) of the XR Falcon. Can you tell us briefly what the answer was?
PonyRider
carnut_73 I would have liked to visit your country AND New Zealand but it doesn't seem likely,
Maybe NZ one day if health is okay.
carnut_73
@ PonyRider: I regret that I've never visited Australia, or even your neighbour, New Zealand. I've always wanted to visit. Hopefully, before I check out, to visit *both* places.
PonyRider
carnut_73 we have quite a few of the American Falcon 'Sprinters' out here in race mode,
Jim Richards raced one with the 289 V8 before he went to the big Javelin, and it is still around.
and yes the shape is quite different to the Aussie Falcons.
carnut_73
@ PonyRider: I reckon you're right. I've seen the American version of the XK Falcon. It's almost identical to the Australian version, save for driver being on the opposite end of the car. Later American Falcons had different appearance from what was sold in Australia.
LilFellaofOz
We used an early 144ci Falcon ute as a paddock vehicle. My brother owned it. They were tough as.
I owned an XP ute. I know just about everything there is to know about a 170ci engine. The weakness was the inlet manifold being cast to the head. If you really wanted them to go you had to get that machined off and a plate with 3 SU or if you were rolling in it 3 45DCOE Webers added to the head. Unfortunately the money wasn't available to a then 18 year old. I remember seeing one advertises in the then Sun for one thousand pounds.(I think it was pounds)
Another unfortunate thing was my Dad had another XP. The two vehicles didn't have the same performance, obviously. Of course my brother blabbed to our Father if his had the same money spent on it and the same work done on it, it too would go pretty well!
I use to give it a new set of rings and a new rear piston every 20,000 miles. you just got good at it.
Finally dropped a V8 in it.
The three speed manual trans was not up to scratch either.
PonyRider
Carnut_73 I do believe you would have enjoyed driving the XL back in the 60's.
I think they would be nice to drive even today.
carnut_73
@ PonyRider: I reckon if I lived in the 1960s in Australia, or possibly New Zealand, I'd probably buy an XL Falcon. While I like the overall styling of the XK, I prefer the improved chassis and suspension of the XL Falcon.
PonyRider
kenwong48 I think the XK, being the first model, had a few problems, but as you can see from photo of my XL (top of forum)
I owned the 2nd model in the series and, like you, I never had any suspension problems whatsoever.
Mine was a 3-on-tree manual, and I think the XK's came out with a Fordomatic Transmission,
I haven't heard any complaints about that, but other Shannon's members might have .
Glad to hear your story, cheers.
kenwong48
I had an XL Falcon, and there was nothing wrong with the suspension. To better the suspension, you would have needed an F100 or similar. The Australian outback was a horrible place for any car. I had to render assistance to a Holden ute after it tried to jump a washout I'd just flew over in my XL sedan in Western Australia's rugged north west in 1970.
PonyRider
Chev62 Having owned XL, XM, and XP I can relate to what you say,
and it never occurred to me why the XR didn't have a 2-door hardtop,
that would have made it more "Mustang Like" and Ford would have had an equivalent to Holden's Monaro !
Good point !
I bet the reply from Ford is a beauty !
Chev62
I enjoyed watching the brief summary of Fords Australian assembled 1960 ‘XK’ Falcon and agree that the styling of these early generation Falcons was at the time, years ahead of any GM - Holden until the release of the 1965 ‘HD’ Holden. 1960 FB, 1961 EK, 1962 EJ, 1963 EH Holdens which were all very dated cars
It’s interesting to note that GM’s firstl ‘luxury’ Holden the EJ Premier had a heater / demister as standard equipment. By comparision Ford Australia’s first luxury Falcon the 1962 XL Falcon Futura sedan and 1962 XL Falcon Squire wagon did not have a standard equipment heater / demister unit.
Squire wagons are very rare, particularly in 1965 XP form, but the most desirable early Falcon in my opinion remains the 1964 XM and 1965 XP 2-door pillarless hardtops, particular the ‘64 Falcon Futura 2 door hardtop. Even better if its red or black with a red interior!.
An other rare model is the 1965 XP Futura sedan and XP Squire wagon as both were replaced by the more common Fairmont models halfway through the 1965 model run.
When the Falcon XR models were released in 1966, I wrote to Ford Australia (I was just 16 years old) and asked them why they had not offered any pillarless hardtops inn the XR range. I still have their written rely today and it makes interesting reading.
carnut_73
Another awesome video! I've heard of the XK Falcon, but I've never heard of the XL Falcon. I find the front end appearance more attractive, with its convex grille, than its predecessor, with its concave grille. What I've never understood was why the XK Falcon's body and chassis wasn't strengthened enough for Aussie road driving conditions. You'd think that Ford of USA would've known about it from previous offerings sold in Australia.
BrianLast
lost my virginity in my pinky beige /white XL Falcon always have fond memories of the old falcon.
PonyRider
Sorry to reject any request for "Connection" I have to limit the number I have.
I can respond to any Posts in a forum though.
MercedesFreak
Fantastic episode on the XK-XL Falcon keep them coming I love those XK-XL Falcons in original condition :) :)
PonyRider
Thanks Mark O and JW, the presentation brought back fond memories of my XL Falcon I bought in Melbourne in 1973.
I loved that car and often wonder if it is still around somewhere. (Number Plate HUG-186)
The only things I didn't like was the low-geared steering and the vacuum wiper system, but I put up with that because it had so many good points and was great to drive. The trip from Melbourne back home to Qld was enjoyable !
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Photo provided below: